{"topic":{"id":13782,"title":"如何评价红斑狼疮沙女士赴瑞士安乐死事件？","slug":"topic","categoryId":4,"createdAt":"2024-10-30 02:13:22.600315","bumpedAt":"2024-11-01 01:23:33.180042","views":300,"postsCount":13,"highestPostNumber":13,"likeCount":8,"closed":false,"pinned":false,"pinnedGlobally":false,"pinnedAt":null,"pinnedUntil":null,"isBanner":false,"excerpt":"前提摘要：沙白身患红斑狼疮 20 年，为了保证生活质量，没有听从医嘱用药，后肾衰竭，今年 3 月份左右身体充水到 130 斤，生活无法自理，开始透析后，难以违背自己的生活理念决定赴瑞士“协助自杀”。沙白“协助自杀”后，在营销号，媒体的转发下突然爆火，引发热议。据为其提供服务的机构 dignitas 官网：瑞士安乐死不合法，其提供的服务为协助自杀正方：未经他人苦，莫劝他人善，赖活不如好死。 https://zhuanlan.zh…","deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"category":{"id":4,"name":"谈笑风生","slug":"general","color":"25AAE2"},"author":{"id":5151,"username":"Soyo34325","name":"Soyo34325","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/9d/e5/9de500d3afb55c0fe71e319832f2af75532222efe94bd3de9aea21f0f5c55707.avif"},"tags":[]},"posts":[{"id":42362,"postNumber":1,"raw":"前提摘要：\n> 沙白身患红斑狼疮 20 年，为了保证生活质量，没有听从医嘱用药，后肾衰竭，今年 3 月份左右身体充水到 130 斤，生活无法自理，开始透析后，难以违背自己的生活理念决定赴瑞士“协助自杀”。\n沙白“协助自杀”后，在营销号，媒体的转发下突然爆火，引发热议。\n据为其提供服务的机构 dignitas 官网：瑞士安乐死不合法，其提供的服务为协助自杀\n![image|600x287](/uploads/image/b2/b5/b2b562bb043140ffd89a86133800cb6f031e6a35cd485f6ebb2b6c2b13001c18.avif)\n\n正方：\n> 未经他人苦，莫劝他人善，赖活不如好死。\n\nhttps://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/3399935448\n\n反方：\n> 她知道自由的可贵性和人生快乐的意义，但她不理解除了自己，其他人也是具备生命同等的重量与尊严，她觉得世界上好像就自己是真实有意义活着的，其他人都是 npc，而最后安乐死也没想太多，这操作似乎就跟在电脑上注销了账号一样，完全失去了对死亡的敬畏。\n\nhttps://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/3379592029\nhttps://www.zhihu.com/question/2164265311/answer/15632362098\n\n这波我站反方 :beaming_face:\n注意关键字**没有听从医嘱用药**，你自己都不爱惜自己的生命凭什么要求别人珍惜你的生命","cooked":"

前提摘要：

\n
沙白身患红斑狼疮 20 年，为了保证生活质量，没有听从医嘱用药，后肾衰竭，今年 3 月份左右身体充水到 130 斤，生活无法自理，开始透析后，难以违背自己的生活理念决定赴瑞士“协助自杀”。
\n沙白“协助自杀”后，在营销号，媒体的转发下突然爆火，引发热议。
\n据为其提供服务的机构 dignitas 官网：瑞士安乐死不合法，其提供的服务为协助自杀
\n $\"image\"$
\n

正方：

\n
未经他人苦，莫劝他人善，赖活不如好死。
\n

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/3399935448

反方：

\n
她知道自由的可贵性和人生快乐的意义，但她不理解除了自己，其他人也是具备生命同等的重量与尊严，她觉得世界上好像就自己是真实有意义活着的，其他人都是 npc，而最后安乐死也没想太多，这操作似乎就跟在电脑上注销了账号一样，完全失去了对死亡的敬畏。
\n

https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/3379592029

https://www.zhihu.com/question/2164265311/answer/15632362098

这波我站反方 😁
\n注意关键字没有听从医嘱用药，你自己都不爱惜自己的生命凭什么要求别人珍惜你的生命

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 02:13:22.781611","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 02:18:15.641247","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":349,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":2,"publicVersion":2,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":5151,"username":"Soyo34325","name":"Soyo34325","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/9d/e5/9de500d3afb55c0fe71e319832f2af75532222efe94bd3de9aea21f0f5c55707.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":"ぜーんぶ弾けなーい！","signatureCooked":"

ぜーんぶ弾けなーい！

\n"}},{"id":42363,"postNumber":2,"raw":"人是否有以任何理由结束自己生命的权利，哪怕这个理由听起来很扯淡。。。这个问题困扰我很久了。。。每次思考这个问题就会回到“我为什么活着”上来，然后就很痛苦，然后就逃避思考了。。。","cooked":"

人是否有以任何理由结束自己生命的权利，哪怕这个理由听起来很扯淡。。。这个问题困扰我很久了。。。每次思考这个问题就会回到“我为什么活着”上来，然后就很痛苦，然后就逃避思考了。。。

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 02:21:44.090287","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 02:21:44.090287","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":1,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":82,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":5100,"username":"匿名39","name":"匿名39","avatarUrl":null,"admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42364,"postNumber":3,"raw":"我支持安乐死，有人本来可以上吊/jump 的，却要花大价钱就安乐死，很难不支持","cooked":"

我支持安乐死，有人本来可以上吊/jump 的，却要花大价钱就安乐死，很难不支持

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 02:35:56.983586","updatedAt":"2024-12-22 15:09:09.838391","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":1,"likeCount":1,"wordCount":34,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"🤣️","count":1,"users":[{"id":200,"username":"Srotseiticar","name":null}],"hasReacted":false},{"reaction":"❤️","count":1,"users":[{"id":200,"username":"Srotseiticar","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":4668,"username":"IO","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/86/f2/86f267c0aaa73835a999b7cc3a7e7a701605574eda9a2c2a56f5ddbbba64d1a9.avif","admin":true,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":"","signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42365,"postNumber":4,"raw":"> 我们对于死亡的观点，不要恐惧它，但是不要主动选择它\n不要温和地走进那个良夜\n\n如果单单只是无可救药，寻求解脱，那么单从这一观点上，我是支持沙女士的\n\n但是沙女士显然把生命和死亡当成了儿戏\n\n这个问题显然是就重避清的，导致沙女士死亡的原因不是“红斑狼疮”而是“肾衰竭”，“红斑狼疮”加遵从医嘱是可以正常生活的\n\n[grid mode=\"tile\"]\n![image|200x305](/uploads/image/1d/b3/1db3b291b1f9394ae3fb39a776c6991712a2e6e5f55ba5ef10fd5ee5cf3a6d30.avif)\n\n![image|51x500](/uploads/image/ac/f9/acf94ac2bbd6478e2d7d0447f8bce73b3996bb29b9946c95766361600829ca6d.avif)\n[/grid]","cooked":"

\n
我们对于死亡的观点，不要恐惧它，但是不要主动选择它
\n不要温和地走进那个良夜
\n

如果单单只是无可救药，寻求解脱，那么单从这一观点上，我是支持沙女士的

但是沙女士显然把生命和死亡当成了儿戏

这个问题显然是就重避清的，导致沙女士死亡的原因不是“红斑狼疮”而是“肾衰竭”，“红斑狼疮”加遵从医嘱是可以正常生活的

$\"image\"$

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 02:40:58.237161","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 02:43:04.944551","replyToPostNumber":2,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":150,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":5151,"username":"Soyo34325","name":"Soyo34325","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/9d/e5/9de500d3afb55c0fe71e319832f2af75532222efe94bd3de9aea21f0f5c55707.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":"ぜーんぶ弾けなーい！","signatureCooked":"

ぜーんぶ弾けなーい！

\n"}},{"id":42367,"postNumber":5,"raw":"想起之前看的这个 \n\n https://b23.tv/LSQBRyC\n\n安乐死和买一袋亚硝酸钠在我看来没区别\n更爆的是她在批判没有器官买卖的自主权\n\n主要是反感这种宣传，患了绝症的有积极上传治疗视频或者运营些其他东西，也有某天突然消失才知道患病的\n单纯自己作死的反而在炫耀自主权和批判自认的不公，最后自媒体又来炒热度","cooked":"

想起之前看的这个

https://b23.tv/LSQBRyC

安乐死和买一袋亚硝酸钠在我看来没区别
\n更爆的是她在批判没有器官买卖的自主权

主要是反感这种宣传，患了绝症的有积极上传治疗视频或者运营些其他东西，也有某天突然消失才知道患病的
\n单纯自己作死的反而在炫耀自主权和批判自认的不公，最后自媒体又来炒热度

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 04:48:36.470644","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 04:48:36.470644","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":1,"wordCount":127,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"💯️","count":1,"users":[{"id":5151,"username":"Soyo34325","name":"Soyo34325"}],"hasReacted":false},{"reaction":"❤️","count":1,"users":[{"id":5151,"username":"Soyo34325","name":"Soyo34325"}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":200,"username":"Srotseiticar","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/b1/9c/b19c1e66543642c1f8875cee0af0cf23bc42ced9ab04c26a042f5da02566d26c.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42368,"postNumber":6,"raw":"> 末人就是喪失文明福利以後的啓蒙者，早已消除了一切習俗和迷信的敬畏，除了眼前的感官享受外無所追求。...他們是純粹的秩序消費者。...他們只有現在、沒有未來。\n\n参考 #末人发生学","cooked":"

\n
末人就是喪失文明福利以後的啓蒙者，早已消除了一切習俗和迷信的敬畏，除了眼前的感官享受外無所追求。...他們是純粹的秩序消費者。...他們只有現在、沒有未來。
\n

参考 #末人发生学

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 05:07:56.930476","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 05:07:56.930476","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":81,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":131,"username":"ChanWingYan","name":"陳永仁 | CHAN Wing Yan","avatarUrl":null,"admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42371,"postNumber":7,"raw":"死没死都还没实锤，搞不好一两年后就秽土转生来带货了。","cooked":"

死没死都还没实锤，搞不好一两年后就秽土转生来带货了。

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 05:25:13.462388","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 05:25:13.462388","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":4,"wordCount":26,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"🤣️","count":4,"users":[{"id":78,"username":"Kirin","name":"左由佳子"},{"id":151,"username":"Rin","name":"Tomotake Rin"},{"id":200,"username":"Srotseiticar","name":null},{"id":5151,"username":"Soyo34325","name":"Soyo34325"}],"hasReacted":false},{"reaction":"❤️","count":4,"users":[{"id":78,"username":"Kirin","name":"左由佳子"},{"id":151,"username":"Rin","name":"Tomotake Rin"},{"id":200,"username":"Srotseiticar","name":null},{"id":5151,"username":"Soyo34325","name":"Soyo34325"}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":1288,"username":"LittleWangInShanghai","name":"小王在上海","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/63/d2/63d25f4f2f6693f9ab450f32bd8d04e2d29f96a980b51555a585423f113c4a58.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42381,"postNumber":8,"raw":"如果一定要自杀的话，我宁可一枪把自己的脑花崩到天花板上……","cooked":"

如果一定要自杀的话，我宁可一枪把自己的脑花崩到天花板上……

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 10:03:59.874622","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 10:03:59.874622","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":1,"wordCount":28,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"🤗️","count":1,"users":[{"id":1288,"username":"LittleWangInShanghai","name":"小王在上海"}],"hasReacted":false},{"reaction":"❤️","count":1,"users":[{"id":1288,"username":"LittleWangInShanghai","name":"小王在上海"}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":78,"username":"Kirin","name":"左由佳子","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/7d/4d/7d4d7e5266a98199df597ec29ecb1b215105b28c65a89939ac0fb58e69572c75.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42416,"postNumber":9,"raw":"抽象上，可否理解为**生存的外在形式**与**生存的必要性**的权衡？\n人 [u] 以何种形式继续其存在 [/u] 建立在其 [u] 生命存在 [/u] 的基础上，若人无法**以生存为基础**建立自身意志所希望的存在形式（或是存在形式违背了自身意愿），那么其是否可以放弃这一**基础**呢？\n——————\n从事件的内在要素来看，对该类免疫病的治疗会对患者的体态与健康造成影响，这也是“不遵医嘱”并配合治疗的原因（不考虑沙的逆天言论），从其关乎治疗的行为上来看，这是上文想表达的权衡——这样的权衡旨在讨论外貌与生存——若是人无法获得自己想要的外貌便放弃生命，这样的权衡是否过于激进、轻视生命了呢？\n**生存的外在形式**可以是任何概念，**当人们将无足轻重的概念与生存本身比较时，便会产生这样的讨论。不过值得思考的是，我们如何定义那些外在概念对生存而言的相对价值？尤其在分歧较大的问题上，这样的定义更为重要。**\n——————\n沙的逆天言论是有害于每一个个体的，尤其是其关于政策与自身价值、甚至是生命的论调。**但对此事实的批判不应被混入上述权衡的价值判断当中去**。遗憾的是，很多媒体（不论是支持或反对）没有将上述两种事物区分开来，却借一而言其左右。\n——————\n最后歪个楼，批判劝阻自杀的逻辑应当是：若我们不能让自杀者放弃自杀后有更优的生活形式，那么这种劝阻便是不公的——因为它只满足了我们的个人正义。","cooked":"

抽象上，可否理解为生存的外在形式与生存的必要性的权衡？
\n人以何种形式继续其存在建立在其生命存在的基础上，若人无法以生存为基础建立自身意志所希望的存在形式（或是存在形式违背了自身意愿），那么其是否可以放弃这一基础呢？
\n——————
\n从事件的内在要素来看，对该类免疫病的治疗会对患者的体态与健康造成影响，这也是“不遵医嘱”并配合治疗的原因（不考虑沙的逆天言论），从其关乎治疗的行为上来看，这是上文想表达的权衡——这样的权衡旨在讨论外貌与生存——若是人无法获得自己想要的外貌便放弃生命，这样的权衡是否过于激进、轻视生命了呢？
\n生存的外在形式可以是任何概念，当人们将无足轻重的概念与生存本身比较时，便会产生这样的讨论。不过值得思考的是，我们如何定义那些外在概念对生存而言的相对价值？尤其在分歧较大的问题上，这样的定义更为重要。
\n——————
\n沙的逆天言论是有害于每一个个体的，尤其是其关于政策与自身价值、甚至是生命的论调。但对此事实的批判不应被混入上述权衡的价值判断当中去。遗憾的是，很多媒体（不论是支持或反对）没有将上述两种事物区分开来，却借一而言其左右。
\n——————
\n最后歪个楼，批判劝阻自杀的逻辑应当是：若我们不能让自杀者放弃自杀后有更优的生活形式，那么这种劝阻便是不公的——因为它只满足了我们的个人正义。

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-30 17:43:19.163702","updatedAt":"2024-10-30 17:43:19.163702","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":1,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":539,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":6290,"username":"Ririka","name":"Ririka Takanashi","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/61/d0/61d028928840014194d60b0c325973f6ddb92b2ab2ddee9f162425f2551707ae.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":"已經，沒什麽好害怕的了。。。","signatureCooked":"

已經，沒什麽好害怕的了。。。

\n"}},{"id":42446,"postNumber":10,"raw":"[quote=\"Ririka Takanashi, post:9, topic:13782, username:Ririka\"]\n沙的逆天言论是有害于每一个个体的，尤其是其关于政策与自身价值、甚至是生命的论调。**但对此事实的批判不应被混入上述权衡的价值判断当中去**。遗憾的是，很多媒体（不论是支持或反对）没有将上述两种事物区分开来，却借一而言其左右。\n——————\n最后歪个楼，批判劝阻自杀的逻辑应当是：若我们不能让自杀者放弃自杀后有更优的生活形式，那么这种劝阻便是不公的——因为它只满足了我们的个人正义\n[/quote]\n完全认同。","cooked":"

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tRirika Takanashi:\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t

\n
沙的逆天言论是有害于每一个个体的，尤其是其关于政策与自身价值、甚至是生命的论调。但对此事实的批判不应被混入上述权衡的价值判断当中去。遗憾的是，很多媒体（不论是支持或反对）没有将上述两种事物区分开来，却借一而言其左右。
\n——————
\n最后歪个楼，批判劝阻自杀的逻辑应当是：若我们不能让自杀者放弃自杀后有更优的生活形式，那么这种劝阻便是不公的——因为它只满足了我们的个人正义
\n

\n\t\t\t\t\t\t

完全认同。

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-31 08:28:00.557729","updatedAt":"2024-10-31 08:28:00.557729","replyToPostNumber":9,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":188,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":5100,"username":"匿名39","name":"匿名39","avatarUrl":null,"admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42450,"postNumber":11,"raw":"https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/j58estNlHeqH2byUJlSDXw","cooked":"","createdAt":"2024-10-31 13:52:09.928468","updatedAt":"2024-10-31 13:52:09.928468","replyToPostNumber":null,"replyCount":1,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":1,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":30,"username":"一只玉米人","name":"玉米🌽","avatarUrl":"/uploads/blob/14/96/14961aeaa46ccbb75a61eec0c27b26e74fb5d1c00ccdcbbe898ca9ea37087dd6.svg","admin":false,"moderator":true,"signatureRaw":"*年月擦身过，暂且问，会更好吗？*","signatureCooked":"

年月擦身过，暂且问，会更好吗？

\n"}},{"id":42453,"postNumber":12,"raw":"人矿学经典案例。","cooked":"

人矿学经典案例。

\n","createdAt":"2024-10-31 14:34:09.663333","updatedAt":"2024-10-31 14:34:09.663333","replyToPostNumber":11,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":0,"wordCount":8,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":1288,"username":"LittleWangInShanghai","name":"小王在上海","avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/63/d2/63d25f4f2f6693f9ab450f32bd8d04e2d29f96a980b51555a585423f113c4a58.avif","admin":false,"moderator":false,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}},{"id":42486,"postNumber":13,"raw":"上吊/jump 的代价很高很痛苦，人很容易就去死了。如果在某学校校园里安一台机器可以瞬间把人气化无痛死亡，估计死的人还会多一百倍。但是人可能想死只是一时冲动","cooked":"

上吊/jump 的代价很高很痛苦，人很容易就去死了。如果在某学校校园里安一台机器可以瞬间把人气化无痛死亡，估计死的人还会多一百倍。但是人可能想死只是一时冲动

\n","createdAt":"2024-11-01 01:23:33.180042","updatedAt":"2024-11-01 01:23:33.180042","replyToPostNumber":3,"replyCount":0,"likeCount":1,"wordCount":73,"liked":false,"bookmarked":false,"polls":[],"reactions":[{"reaction":"magic_wand_grin","count":1,"users":[{"id":5657,"username":"CR-V","name":null}],"hasReacted":false},{"reaction":"❤️","count":1,"users":[{"id":4668,"username":"IO","name":null}],"hasReacted":false}],"wiki":false,"version":1,"publicVersion":1,"deletedAt":null,"isAnonymous":false,"user":{"id":1892,"username":"AI","name":null,"avatarUrl":"/uploads/image/75/41/75410526aa87e9fdc9a80a8704ef1f3c294b168936bfca9452075beb5a122449.avif","admin":true,"moderator":true,"signatureRaw":null,"signatureCooked":null}}],"hasMore":false,"lastReadPostNumber":1,"hasUrlPostNumber":false}